We will be convening here at the ZigZag café, Suisse, on Thursdays for conversation and dialogue. I invite you to stop by every Thursday for the question of the day. Your thoughts and participation are most welcome. Pull up a stool, avec un café, un thé, ou un chocolat chaud, et un croissant, and join in here on Thursday at the ZZ café.
For today:
Someone recently said, “nothing is the way it’s supposed to be.” What are your thoughts on this?
9 comments:
If nothing is how it is supposed to be, then there is one "thing" that is how it is supposed to be, namely the measure of how the rest is supposed to be. If the measure was not how the measure was supposed to be, it follows that there is another measure which measure the measure and soon we have an infinte regress. That means that we have two options: assume that there is one measure or think the infinite regress: the infinte regress will lead us nowhere so that is why we have to assume that there is one measure if we believe that the sentence "nothing is the way it is supposed to be." is true.
That means that the sentence just makes sense if one says: "except of the measure of how the rest is supposed to be, the rest is not how it is supposed to be."
What is the measure and what is the rest?
edited version: If "nothing is the way it is supposed to be." then there is one "thing" that is how it is supposed to be, namely the measure of how the rest is supposed to be. If the measure was not how the measure was supposed to be, it followed that there was another measure M2 which measured measure M1 and soon we had an infinte regress. That means that we have two options: assume that there is one measure or think the infinite regress: the infinte regress will lead us nowhere so that is why we have to assume that there is one measure if we believe that the sentence "nothing is the way it is supposed to be." is true.
That means that the sentence just makes sense if one says: "except of the measure of how the rest is supposed to be, the rest is not how it is supposed to be."
What is the measure and what is the rest?
Joe said
Sounds familiar, perhaps C. Plantinga's book entitled, "Not the Way It's Supposed to Be : A Breviary of Sin" IMHO it none the less true regardless of who said it, or as a friend of mine would say, "it is of a truth, a truth I tell you."
Joe, Thanks. I guess one of the problems I have with the saying is the "nothing" in it - so comprehensive. Does it mean the earth doesn't go round the sun? Plants don't grow? Oceans don't have waves? Gravity doesn't work? Love is not real?
Joe said
Looking from your perspective I would agree for the most part. I would also toss out on the table that much of the Internet based discussion/conversation etc. suffers from the information overload of the modern world and brevity of discourse used by many internet participants. The greatest joy and most value I find in being at L'Abri is the opportunity to engage a person or persons face to face at length over multiple conversations. An opportunity to not only hear their words, but to gain insight into the perspective/viewpoint/background etc. from which their understanding, language and beliefs flow. A chance to ask questions and or clarify context and understanding. As far as the scope of the word "nothing" reaches in the initial statement or your reply? I have no final answer, only more questions...I am a fallen broken person in a fallen broken creation and the older I get the more I realize that I have under estimated the extent of the fall, the brokenness of both creation and creature. In turn I then find more difficult to try and "guess" what normal was prior to the fall and the ensuing brokenness. Did the earth go around the sun? I presume, but I do not know. Did the oceans have waves? I would think so, but I do not know, perhaps the oceans were great gentle bodies of waters. Gravity it would seem was woven into the fabric of creation, but.....Love well are you talking about God's love for His creature and creation, or our love for Him or each other. If you ask of His love not being real based on "nothing is the way it is supposed to be," then no, His love is real regardless of whatever else. If you ask of say my love for my wife, then I would say it is real, no matter how flawed and broken. I say that not because I apart from being made in God's image am able to love, but because having been made in His image I am able to love. Oh well, tired of typing on my lap, on my laptop...I have opened the proverbial "can of worms" and now I am off to tend the garden. It seems that I find Him there now, more than ever....a creative loving God reflected in growing living plants and birds singing amid the bubbling sounds of the fountains flowing water (albeit it created artificially, it is the best I have at the this present moment." Warmest greetings, love and prayers for all who are there.
Yes, very good points. Seems to me that we probably both under and over estimate the thing called the fall and that science via the natural world is an informer that we want to critically listen to on continuity and discontinuity issues, but I do look forward to hammering this out further in a L'Abri face to face encounter. Happy gardening. We're packed at the moment with about 35 guests, which is challenging and enjoyable.
Joe said
now that I have stirred the pot..I have a reasonable belief that the natural order as we know is still much the same as at the point of creation...affected by the fall, not destroyed or warped beyond recognition...just so you know I have not fallen off the edge. :) Today I am glad to be able to go and spend some time at the outreach mission/shelter...for it is there that I see God reflected more fully in the restored lives of people reaching out to help those who have needs; physical, fiscal, spiritual, emotional...it is in the "doing," the "listening," the "being there" the "praying," and as needed the "speaking" for and to those in need that brings great content and joy.
Thanks. These are wise, gentle, and inspiring words, embedded in actions "Today". So glad to know you have not "fallen" off the edge. That natural world informer may have some challenging insights for particular theological interpretations of both biblical text and nature. Hang on.
Sisyphos,
Welcome back. Thanks. I agree with your analysis. I find the notion problematic. For one thing, it presupposes what you correctly detect: some standard of measure by which to measure all else. As long as this is agreed upon or assumed - a once perfect world and now an imperfect one, then the rest "nothing" follows. But if one does not agree or assume the truth of the statement and its premise (it's awfully black and white), and why should we in looking at and living in the world, then this type of view generates more questions than it provides answers.
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