We will be convening here at the ZigZag café, Suisse, on Thursdays for conversation and dialogue. I invite you to stop by every Thursday for the question of the day. Your thoughts and participation are most welcome. Pull up a stool, avec un café, un thé, ou un chocolat chaud, et un croissant, and join in here on Thursday at the ZZ café.
Why do you think God does or does not change due to human or outside influence?
14 comments:
- God said so.
- If God changed due to our influence, we were equal.
- If God changed, how could we trust? First, he is not strong enough to withstand outside forces. Second, he is no longer steady, no longer reliable, no longer trustworthy.
Greg -
Remember the song that says "...the unmutable, unchangeable God..."? I don't think God's character changes, regardless of what we do. He is always loving, always accepting, always redeeming, always reconciling.
Does God change the ways he deals with us and with humanity based on what we do and where we are? I think so. But is this changing his character? No. It's influencing his actions.
Maybe I'm playing with semantics here, but it's to make a point.
Lukas,
Thanks. What if God did not want to withstand some outside forces? This would be God's own choice, not because of weakness.
John,
Thanks. If I understand, you are making a distinction between God's character and his dealings (actions) with humanity and its context. If God is unchangeable, how could his actions be influenced?
I think that God's character changes based upon our (humanity's) maturity and perspective. God doesn't change, the way he relates to a culture prepared or unprepared for certain attributes of his character does. I think this is why the God of the Old Testament seems so much different than the God of the new. A loving parent is not ready to relate to his child as a friend until the child has grown up and become his own man.
Erin,
Thanks. That's an interesting take on it. God's character changes depending on the state of humanity. Have I got it? God relates in one way or another based on the cultural attitudes to his character. So God's character and the way God relates changes, yet God doesn't. Is that you're view?
Greg -
Unchangeable in being, changeable in action/substance? Character does not equal actions, though they are tied together (related and distinct). Actions reflect your character, character determines your actions.
We can trust God to not change in character and therefore manner of dealing with us (he's always just and loving), but the way that works itself out (the specifics) will be different depending on the person, the situation, and other factors.
Thoughts?
John,
True, actions and character cannot be simply collapsed into one or completely separated, so they are related and distinct. But how is this to be formulated?
God is influenced by us in his actions towards us, but his character does not change. Does that capture your view?
Greg, to answer your question (what if God did not want to...), could you put the original question into more context? What outside forces/influences do you think of? And what exactly do you mean by humanity?
Greg, thanks for todays blog post about yesterdays zigzag.
Another thought about change. I guess, that Erin has a good point about human maturity. But I would still think, that neither God nor his character changes. Maybe we perceive it differently. Or maybe humanism has changed our mind/perception so that we can not perceive it correctly anymore.
And in addition: We tend to fix God to some behavior and character and actions and whatever. (Like making an image of God...) But we are not supposed to. Right, we can see how he acted - and that is surely one of the reasons for revelation - but we can not tell God how he needs to act. We tend to do that, though. We make moral considerations about Gods behavior. But we have no interest in considerations about a sovereign God. How can we say that he changed, when we can not oversee every situation in "Gods life" (and not even our life!), while God says at the same time, that he does not change?
Lukas,
By outside influence, I was thinking of the world for example. By humanity, I meant human beings.
Lukas,
I agree that we tend to "fix" God. For myself, I have no interest in some views of a sovereign God, but I believe God is sovereign. Yes, we are much too small and finite, yet God has made us to be significant.
God appears to change his plan of action in response to human prayer (e.g. Moses asking God to spare Israel after God says he will destroy them). One might theorize that God always knows what he will ultimately do and never truly changes his mind/plan. He may know what prayers will be prayed and what his final actions will be. I don't know if it's possible as humans to know if/how we change God's mind or ways. But perhaps there is some benefit (at least as far as prayer is concerned) in living as if we can influence God's actions.
Ben,
Thanks. I agree that God can respond to requests and that he can change a course of action, but I believe this is with his covenantal communicative revealing of something of who he is.
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