We will be convening here at the ZigZag café, Suisse, on Thursdays for conversation and dialogue. I invite you to stop by every Thursday for the question of the day. Your thoughts and participation are most welcome. Pull up a stool, avec un café, un thé, ou un chocolat chaud, et un croissant, and join in here on Thursday at the ZZ café.
For today:
The God of the Old Testament is described as being a jealous God in EX 20:5. Is this a fitting description for the God of the world?
20 comments:
If GOD chose to reveal himself in such a way / with these words, how could this not be fitting?
Of course, the question is, what does it mean by "jealous"? Dictionary.com says the Biblical meaning is "Bible . intolerant of unfaithfulness or rivalry". This is tough language in today's world.
If "jealous" means desiring something strongly, as in "jealous for", then I think we can say God is a jealous God, in that he desires belief (but does not coerce).
Thoughts?
Lukas,
Thanks. I suggest two things:
1) your comment has little support other than something like, the Bible says it and therefore that's the end of the discussion. What would be more helpful would be to know how you think this is fitting. Some people today are horrified at the thought that God is jealous, and perhaps it wouldn't be compassionate to simply tell them - well, the Bible says it - so therefore it's fitting. Another example: God chose to reveal himself in creation too, but it's important to explore what this means.
2) capitals are not really necessary unless you feel you really have to use them. Your points are always welcome here and I think we're in tune with your emphasis.
John,
Thanks. On that definition, I agree about the tough language in today's world. That's where much discussion is concerning the character of God and whether or not it's rather dubious or seemingly appropriate.
You're seem well attuned to the issues this raises about an ethical God, who may not be only jealous for, but jealous of.
What is the original Hebrew word/phrase used? Does it really mean "jealous" as we use it today? Maybe it should be translated differently. In the contextual prohibition of idol worship, it seems that the concept of a God who wants our hearts and attention is warming. In the 21st century, however, the word "jealous" conjures imagery of selfishness.
Greg, I understand your suggestions. I wanted to make this point: I wanted to move the focus to God, since it is him who reveals himself not us or someone who describes him. Surely the same words can be used for either case. But I think we need to take care, that it was God who revealed this. A lot of things God reveals can not be easily understood by mankind. This does not change the facts though. God remains the same no matter how we perceive it.
(And maybe I did not understand the question correctly and did not like the formulation of the question too much...)
I see a difference between envy and jealousy. I learned that one is jealous if one has the right to be jealous and one is envious if one does not have the right to be envious. Short example: I am jealous on someone else, if my wife loves him more than me. I am envious on someone else for the nice house that he worked for and I want to have it too.
Today people I know tend to mix up those two. Maybe the problems arise from this understanding?
Has God the right to be jealous?
Compare Romans 1...
Carter,
Good point on the Hebrew. The word is qanna and jealous seems a good translation. So jealous is divine and not to be human.
Good question - is this jealous as we use it today?
Lukas,
I agree with your theological focus. OK - God revealed this, but we still have to try to discern what it means. Seems like there must be a difference between divine and human jealousy. How would you formulate that?
Lukas,
Now your thinking and formulating. Marking out the difference between jealousy and envy is helpful.
If God has the right to be jealous (I take your question rhetorically in that your answer would be Yes), why is this the case? Can we just say, God is God and he has the right to be jealous, or might there be more to add theologically?
perhaps we should think about some context for the usage of this word...maybe this would shed some new light on the motivation for the God of Exodus' jealousy. so here is Exodus 20:4-6 ESV:
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
...so here we have a reason for God's jealousy (something John was hinting at): the Israelite's infidelity. It seems that given this, we see the fierceness of God's love for his people. And I admit, if this portrayal of God is true, it is scary. But at the same time, perhaps it is necessary...if God loves his people, would he let them fall astray without emotion? He yearns, desires for the Israelites to stop screwing up--and in this circumstance, his love is jealousy, which manifests as wrath.
It is very difficult, however, to apply this to what I know about God from the world, as Greg was suggesting we all do...is the God depicted in Exodus really the God of the gospel? Is this God really ruling the world today?
How do we know...
Julia,
Thanks. Excellent. Context is always a good move for trying to understand a word, phrase, verse, or paragraph.
Your comments, after citing the context, are well taken, so I need not add more. One further pertinent discussion would be your use of "without emotion" implying that God has them. What are emotions? And is there a relation and distinction between whatever they are, humanly and divinely speaking. Alas, for another conversation.
But to try to throw something out in response to your questions. It seems to me one of the keys for understanding this God is covenant. This reality ties together the Exodus and Gospel God, and is most fully expressed in Jesus' covenant fulfillment and renewal.
As to this God ruling the world today, I think that depends on the notion of "ruling." Several facets of this rule might be that this Exodus and Gospel God is patient, long suffering, and full of wise and enduring love.
Possibly, the phrase means that as the "one in whom we live and move and have our being" only god is worthy of our worship. As the one true god, then, he is only right to be jealous of our hearts.
Carter,
This is a good way of putting it, shall I say, theologically and in a fitting covenant key.
Please don't accuse me of being theological or whatever. Seriously.
Carter,
Theological, just like many other words, has to recover its positive sense. If the "one true god" in your comment is not theological (and of course more), I don't know what is.
Further, I never said you were theological, only that what you said had that connection.
Looking at the stars in the winter night
I cannot do otherwise but wonder and sigh:
Jealous of, hence intimate
With earth and man – the seeming whore
Strong attributes for God who made
Besides our earth some billions more
The Universe infinity
just like a massive background scrimmage?
The main scene though: the Tête-à-tête
between the Other and his image?
Looking at the stars in the winter night
I cannot do otherwise but doubt and sigh …
Sisyphos,
Thanks. Poetic musings are always welcome. I guess though the bold statements - "I cannot do otherwise" leave much to be desired, poetically and more.
OK. I can live with that.
Carter,
Glad to hear it. Hope to hear from you on ZigZag tomorrow.
Post a Comment