We will be convening here at the ZigZag café, Suisse, on Thursdays for conversation and dialogue. I invite you to stop by every Thursday for the question of the day. Your thoughts and participation are most welcome. Pull up a stool, avec un café, un thé, ou un chocolat chaud, et un croissant, and join in here on Thursday at the ZZ café.
For today:
How might Christian hope relate to ‘our’ world?
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27 comments:
"our world" is somewhat ironic, since we are to be in it but not of it,something i fail at quite often. This world places humans on a pedestal, turning them into gods, and when they turn out to be less than god, then this world demonizes them. Christian hope provides that we are made perfect only by grace, and as that grace was extended to me for no justifiable reason, then i can offer that grace to those who have been ripped from their pedestals. We are all just beggars together, showing our maps to the foodbank.
Carter,
Thanks. Helpful thoughts. Seems to me that Christian hope both consoles and leads to protests against the status quo of present experience. Hope aligns itself with God's promises and their ultimate fulfillment in Jesus Christ and his future.
I would think the consolation you're talking of,
Greg, would be for the present predicament
we find ourselves in. In our human grieving and
brokenness, Christ consoles us. His protest
would be against just sitting in that brokenness
and not being resurrected to what God has called
us to. So maybe we are beggars initially, but are
intended for so much more and capable of being
so much more by grace.
Christian hope goes beyond the surface of things, by its power heals our beggar wounds, and
transforms us on the inside.
Angela,
Thanks. True enough. I wonder though if the protest is against any status quo of the present, not just the negative as God seems to be out to renew the whole world. And if beggars we are, glorious ones we have always been.
This is getting esoteric. This is not my home. There is no salvation in political victory or economic security. Nor in strength or beauty. That is our hope. That this world is not the end of it all. Or at least, that is mine.
Carter,
Agreed. This world, as it is, is not the end of it all. Hope seems to be fixed on God's promise of this world renewed.
I agree with what Carter is saying about hope beyond this world, and with Greg about God's setting out to renew the world.
The tricky thing for me is that although the things
Carter mentioned (victory, strength, economic
security...) do not bring salvation, they CAN bring
hope and we often thank God for these things if
we have them, or work to get them if we do not
have them. If I were living through the tragedy in
Haiti, and received aid in time of need, I would
count this as tremendous hope from God in time
of need. Hope can be practical stuff.
Yet if God is setting out to redeem us, there must be something more than these to which he has called us. More than good and desirable things, but rather a readiness to the specific good things He demands of us and calls us to as we access him. (which may or may not bring the results of material things).
Angela,
Seems like the trajectories of this world meeting an other are both important for redemption now and in the future. Hope is in the promises of God fulfilled and to be fulfilled and as such, practical matters of this world are important, yet also to be viewed in the vista of a horizon that goes beyond them.
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Carter -
But this IS our home for now, so we are to take care of it and to work for the redemption of it while we are here. And I would argue, theologically, that this IS our home eternally as well, and that's even more reason to take care of it in the here and now!
Christian hope relates to our world, I think Greg, in that we have a greater grid through which to view the world as Christians. We move in the direction of redemption and offer hope to those who are broken and hurting, through Christ and his sacrifice for us on the cross.
Knowing that this might be controversial I say that Christian hope must finally go beyond its status quo clustered around the self, bolstered by dogmas in tremendous fear of an angry God. Hope had been interpreted in a very individualistic way out of fear of hell and his judgement. Selves sensititive of the other outside of those dogmas or sensitive selves outside of those dogmas had been left behind - broken and messed up. To deny oneself as Jesus (in my opinion) demands means leaving those selfish dogmas of salvation behind and relying totally on his grace for oneself without making any any any system out of it for the other. Every attempt to box Gods grace into a human system in the end is idolatry in my opinion. Descartes being confused tried to make a universal path for mankind to epistemological salvation. How could he dare to say so as on situaded subject in complex world full of other others. As one limited subject like Descartes how do we dare to tread the same path in trying to find a way to Christian salvation and reducing hope to a self-centered reductionistic belief in individualistic salvation?
I hope for a God of Justice and Mercy and Grace and believe that if there is a God he is crying out in the nights tremendously when seeing all the shattered existences while we drink and sleep and rejoice in superficial laughter.
Every existence, hence every political system, hence every economical theory interests him since they influence the beloved existences he had been creating.
If there is a God he is working for shalom in a holistic way pouring out his Love and Mercy over the whole world. That is the hope I have.
May I correct my grammatical and orthographical mistakes:
To deny oneself as Jesus demands means (in my opinion) leaving those selfish dogmas of salvation behind and relying totally on his Grace for oneself without making any any any system out of it for the other. Every attempt to box Gods grace into a human system in the end is idolatry in my opinion. Descartes being confused tried to make a universal path for mankind to epistemological salvation. How could he dare to do so as one situaded subject in a complex world full of other others?
Too cerebral. Yes, starship earth is my home for now. But it is not the be-all and end-all. Yes, we are to care for it because it is a bailment with which we have been entrusted. But God is not in those details. God is not political power. God is not money. Political power is not god. Money is not god. For that matter, neither is political weakness or poverty. Many of the comments on this post seem to go for an absolute instead of a golden mean. Don't think that you've got me pegged from a few comments on here.
Hi Carter
Could you explain a little bit further what you mean with the "absolute" instead of a "golden mean"?
John,
Thanks. Good point about home for now and the future. Seems to me that Christian hope relates to our world in all facets of life.
Sisyphos,
Thanks. Maybe Christian hope goes beyond all status quos. I agree that hope and salvation have often been misconstrued in highly individualistic way that become way too reductionistic. A central feature of hope is to be found in the resurrection of Christ and his future.
Carter,
I'm not convinced that God may not be in the details. Your "But God is not in those details" seems a rather absolute comment, by the way. YHWH, in fact, seems to be a pretty detail type of character.
While I agree that none of the things you mention are God, there is no reason to assume that God has nothing to do with them. If Christ is Lord, he is Lord of all of life now and in the future.
Hope is not an absolute, nor a golden mean, but focused on the crucified and risen one who is and will be victorious over all that is ungodly.
By absolute versus golden mean, what I am trying to say is that some bloggers on here seem to assume that because a position to left of center or right of center may be taken, that the one taking that position is far right or left. Please don't consider left and right to mean liberal and conservative--just polar directions. Too bad there's not sufficient room on here for a book!! Look at Gulliver--he would swing from pole to pole rather than the golden mean.
Greg--
Maybe it is time that we begin to define our terms, but I am getting tired of this. I was not using the word "absolute" in the sense of absolute truth.
Carter,
Let's try to be clear. You mentioned that many of the comments on this post went for an absolute (which, by the way, I guess I see more balance in them than you do).
My point was not about absolute truth, but merely to highlight that your comment about 'God not being in those details ...' per your own post, had a rather absolute ring to it. I was aiming therefore to raise the need for a hermeneutics of suspicion that is willing to not only critique others, but to explore whether our counter position ends up doing the same thing as what we're critiquing, only just in a different way.
Hope that clarifies what I was trying to get at in my previous comment.
And all I was trying to say is that God is not his creation.
And please, don't bring Herman into this.
Carter,
Agreed. How about a formulation like: God is related to and distinct from his creation, with the ways that happens at least for the present conversation, being left somewhat open.
Yet it is still "my father's world" and so worthy of our care and respect. Sometimes I think that those who worship nature can see the hand of God and therefore mistake it to be God. Or am I going out on a limb?
Carter,
I agree. Nature worship tends to see nature as divine, which it is not. Again, the biblical view is one, I think, of a relation - distinction configuration, which excludes nature worship from having any real credibility. Nature is a creation, not the Creator.
Just look at other ancient Near Eastern texts. Many of these assumed nature - sun, moon, etc. were gods. Not so for Israel. YHWH called Israel and then the nations away from such folly.
While we seem far from the topic of "hope," we really aren't. I think it is because of our hope in God that we can effectively work in this world. (Is this coming full circle?)
Carter,
Good point. One of our reasons for hope is because God is the Creator and not the creation - so the character and identity of God in relation and distinction offer hope that in turn enables us to work in the world in effective ways as it is God's world.
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