We will be convening here at the ZigZag café, Suisse, on Thursdays for conversation and dialogue. I invite you to stop by every Thursday for the question of the day. Your thoughts and participation are most welcome. Pull up a stool, avec un café, un thé, ou un chocolat chaud, et un croissant, and join in here on Thursday at the ZZ café.
For today:
Do you think all the tears and screams, combined with the misery of the world, have been addressed by God?
14 comments:
In theory and finally, yes.
But if so, why do we still experience them today?
Maybe, but not if evangelical theology is right. They put mankind under one judgement. They believe that mankind is evil - that an abused and beaten up child is the same like Goebbels or Mengele. But that is not true.
(Maybe I am exaggerating - I am willing to correct myself.)
I will come back to the discussion. Now its time to sleep. Good night - have some beautiful dreams or a wonderful day.
Always rember: it could be your last one.
John,
Thanks. Your question is similar to a couple posed by Jenny on another recent post.
Seems like, in response, we have to work back from the future to the present to the past and forward from the past to the present to the future. God's address to our plight flows through covenant, Israel, prophecy, the cross and resurrection of Christ, and the second coming of Christ. Even though the present, in some sense, is not yet what it will be in the future, we can have hope that it will be future some day. But where is the practical reality of God's address now? It is there in subtle, yet powerful ways that sometimes go beyond our own contexts. Having said that, it does not remove our query, as the prophets of old, how long oh Lord?
Micha,
Thanks. Perhpas, today you can clarify.
Maybe, but not if evangelical theology is right. They put mankind under one judgement. They believe that mankind is evil - that an abused and beaten up child is the same like Goebbels or Mengele. But that is not true.
And: now it is important what we believe about hell. I am used to following distinction: believers will be in heaven and nonbelievers will be seperated eternally from God.
What is our hope if Gods judgement doesnt distinguish between those who commit sins and those who have to suffer?
Micha,
Seems like you equate victim and victimizer and while it is true that humanity is a mixture of both, God is against one and for the other, yet both are dealt with in the same way - the cross of Christ. True, all will be judged, but not all have the same destiny.
Remember, heaven will be a renewed earth.
"Seems like you equate victim and victimizer"
No, no, no. I think you totally misunderstood me.
I just explained how Christians sometimes present Gods justice and judgement. How I normally heard people talk about the cross and hell.
I believe that the same judgement for everybody is injust.
I believe that there are people that cannot trust anymore and that they are not responsible for not trusting God any more, for not believing in his love any more.
I believe that a good and just God will take those people whether they believe in him or not.
I imagine those little children starving and freezing and I believe that they will be in heaven.
Is the cross an answer for the suffering people?
I dont know how the cross is facing and adressing the misery in this world.
Let me ask you: do you think that "the little orphan" by Dostojevskij is just emotional crap or true?
http://www.online-literature.com/dostoevsky/3369/
"yet both are dealt with in the same way - the cross of Christ"
But just if they know him, right? If not, they will be dealt in the same way and will be seperated eternally from God. Isn't that the message of Scripture?
My comment is sort of muddled but I hope you understand.
Micha
Micha,
Sometimes I think you're ahead of yourself. Yes, I think that the cross of Christ has the capacity to absorb suffering and evil, without being ultimately defeated by them. Christ overcomes by his resurrection, which opens a way for others to follow in his path. Yes, knowing him is crucial, but there are many who have not had this opportunity and God will, in their case, do what is loving and just concerning their final destiny.
Greg, I agree. I asked my question to generate some discussion. We have to remember (I remember we had some good discussions on remembering) where we were, where we are now, and then ultimately where we are going.
And I think we have to cling to the hope that one day it will all be set straight. That's what gets me out of bed in the morning!
Greg, I also like what you say about God being for the victim and against the victimizer, but still just and merciful in it all.
We can't hold others responsible eternally ourselves. We're called to hate the sin and love the sinner, right? And we are called to forgive and leave the punishment to God.
But when do we call for justice? That's where it gets sticky in my thinking.
John,
Good questions and comments. Yes, I agree with the problematic of 'when' with regards to a call for justice. I'm not sure that there is any fixed notion of this that applies in every situation. There are always mitigating circmstances that need to be considered, but in doing so there are also solid reasons to act justly ourselves and to challenge others to do likewise. Maybe love and mercy have to take their course and then as particular contexts are evaluated, justice is to be applied to oneself and then to others. It will never be perfect, but God has given us his word and Spirit, so that we can do the best we can to be representatives of Christ in a hurting and broken world where misery so often seems to triumph over blessing.
Thanks for the feedback, Greg. This justice topic is one I am interested in exploring more once we can sit and chat again.
I still would like to know what you think about the story.
Micha,
I'll try to read it today.
Micha,
After reading the story, I think there is something sadly and joyously true in it. However, it's too polarized in the gruesome and the wonderous. If we take one orphan and make his story paradigmatic for all humanity then we ignore too much. Yet, we must not underplay this woeful significance and its drastic contrast either. Life is a tension and filled with many anomalies, but need for the cross of Christ stands out all the more.
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